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View Full Version : GEARS: SYNCHRO vs DOG/ Straight cut vs helical cut


kgj996
03-04-2009, 07:37 PM
So your looking for a gear set for your ride and can't decide what gears best fit your application. Between dog boxes and synchro gears, to straight cut and helical cut gears, there are lots of choices and lots of differences. Here is a quick down and dirty:

Synchro: These type of transmissions are found in 99.9% of manufactured cars on the road today. They use "synchros" or synchromesh rings to speed up or slow down the gear that you are shifting to, synchronizing the speeds so you can select the next gear smoothly. You can get gear sets in either straight cut or heical cut gears or a combination of the two.

Some of the pros to using synchro gears:


They are very drivable and easy to live with in a daily driver. With smooth quiet shifts, they make the best choice for a daily driver especially for a city commute.



They are less expensive because of the availability of parts. They have been making synchro transmissions for the past 50+ years so lots of companies make parts for these.
They are relitively maintenance free, besides the occational gear lube change and a magnetic brain plug is always a good idea.

Cons of a synchro gear set:


They are weaker than dog engagement gears. Synchros take up more room than dog rings, so there is less room in the box for thicker gears. Thicker gears mean more torque handling and less breaking.
Synchros often are made of bronze alloys and they wear out after time and can corrode if the wrong type of gear lube is used. On late model Subarus like 02-05 WRXs, 1st gear syncro will wear out and not allow you to shift into first unless you are near a complete stop. Also 4th gear syncro is prone to premature wear.
Requires the clutch to be engaged to shift gears.


Here is a pic of a helical gear synchro box:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/silvialost/subaru%20trans/IMG_2437.jpg

Dog Gears: Dog boxes were frist developed for the race track and used to only be found in competion race cars. Like a lot of other race developed technologies, the dog box eventually found it's way to the street and the prices became withing reach of the weekend racer and hobbiest. Because of there extreme power handling, dog boxes have become more and more popular with high power street applications, regardless of there poor everyday drivability.

Dog gears or a "dog box" use dog rings to select gears instead of synchros. These are very stout rings made of steel alloys similar to the gears, that directly interlock with the gear when the selector fork moves it. These dogs instantly select the gear. There is no extra time to wait like with synchros, because the next gear doesn't have to speed up or slow down to mach the speed to be selected like in a synchro box. This greatly cuts down on time between shifts and can make a big difference in competition like dragracing of auto-x. Dog rings are also a great deal thinner than synchros, making room for thicker gears and allowing the box to handle more power. Because of the sudden gear engagement, dog boxes can be tricky to drive and get used to. They require fast and positive shifts to work properly. If you shift them slow and timidly, you can damage or wear out the dog rings. Kind of counterintuitive, but they need to be slammed into gear to work properly.

Because of the dog ring engagement, the clutch doesn't need to be engaged to shift, on or off power! This can not be done with a synchro box unless you rev match and are not under power. Even if you do the above, you still are wearing out the synchros.

Pros of a "dog box:


Massive power handling! With the room to fit wider gears, a well built dog box will handle 1000whp+!
Can handle extreme shock load from drag launches and hard full power shifts.
Less parts in the transmission to wear out if driven properly.
Fast shifts
Clutchless shifts

Cons:


Expensive. They can cost up to $10K for a 6 speed and 7K for a 5 speed.



They are hard to drive. If you have a daily driver, these are probably not for you.
Loud! the shifts are very clunky and very noisy.
If not driven properly, they can need to have the dog rings replaced.


Here are a pic of a straight cut 5 speed PPG dog Box.
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/files/wrx3.jpg

After you have figured out what type of box you want, now you need to choose the cut of gears you want. There are two cuts, straight and helical.

Helical cut gears are the most common found in most late model cars on the road today. They are relatively quiet due to there curved profile, with only part of the gear tooth contacting the other at any given time. Due to the limited tooth contact area, they can be more seceptable to breaking due to shock load. With only part of the tooth contacting the other, only a fraction of the tooth is taking all of the stress from driving, of launching, or racing.

Straight cut gears are as they sound, straight cut. The teeth contact straight on to each other and the whole tooth width is used during contact. These gears are considerably louder due to the increase of contact surface, and make a loud whine, like a super charger of a gear driven timing set.This whine is quite loud and can get old on a daily driver, but with the increase in tooth contact area, the gears can handle shock a lot better. A lot of people who do drive there cars daily compromise and will get straight cut gears 1st and 2nd, were the most shock load occurs, and get helical cut gears for 3rd through 5th. Either way you go, consider your application first and decide what best fits your ride. If you are planning on running a 16g with a conservative tune, a dog box might not be what you need. But if your goal is to put down 600whp and race every weekend then a dog box might be right for you.



If you own any of the above, chime in and post your set up and experience with it. I'm no transmission expert, so correct me if I have anything wrong.
http://image50.webshots.com/50/8/67/20/478986720GBajRr_ph.jpg

wagonmafia
03-04-2009, 07:44 PM
very nice write up man.

so why nothing on the ever so cool "fagmatic boxes"

kgj996
03-04-2009, 07:48 PM
I was saving that thread for the expert (yourself). Plus my pain pills just kicked in from my wisdom tooth extraction.:lol:

-=The Boss=-
03-04-2009, 08:08 PM
Nice thread! must read again :spin:

wagonmafia
03-04-2009, 08:29 PM
I was saving that thread for the expert (yourself). Plus my pain pills just kicked in from my wisdom tooth extraction.:lol:


wow that sucks man, hopefully they gave you the goodstuff.

morbidgorilla
03-04-2009, 11:34 PM
So its possable to get staight cut syncro gears?

kgj996
03-05-2009, 07:13 AM
Yes, or a combination of straight and helical.

Seraphinwolf
03-05-2009, 04:08 PM
Nice writeup Kevin. For now I'm getting a V6 RA DCCD for my GF but will likely in time go to Dog Box. You know when it's less DD and I can get used ot a Dog engagement. Gotta get that power to the floor!
-Gaddis

Nate8409
03-05-2009, 06:55 PM
I still believe the case flex theory out there. These gears are just a super expensive fix.

Some rally guys out there a while back made a case reinforcement where they thought it flexed and the transmissions started lasting 10 rallys instead of the 2 rallys without the case brace.

Kevin
03-05-2009, 07:01 PM
I loved the ratio's of teds 6-speed dogbox.

thats what I would get if it didn't cost so much lol

Robk0000
03-05-2009, 07:03 PM
how hard is it to install a gear set into a 5speed?

Fromt he pics of the tranny it doesnt look to bad, maybe time consuming but not difficult?

Nate8409
03-05-2009, 07:50 PM
The process is supposed to be very complicated and you follow the service procedures which include lots of measuring but as I have seen many technicians do transmission work they don't ever take the time to measure.

So really what I am saying here is do the best you can to follow procedure and just go for it. I want to rebuild a transmission one day.

kgj996
03-05-2009, 08:27 PM
I still believe the case flex theory out there. These gears are just a super expensive fix.

Some rally guys out there a while back made a case reinforcement where they thought it flexed and the transmissions started lasting 10 rallys instead of the 2 rallys without the case brace.

There is a guy on Nasioc who has developed a bracket to install on the 5 speed case and it has shown to cut case flex in half. And it is very reasonable at $199 for the whole kit! here is a link. (http://www.nighthawkautomotive.com/)

kgj996
03-08-2009, 08:51 PM
I know some one here must have some experience with aftermarket gears. Any first hand experience with any of the above?

Bu11dogg2
09-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Great write up!

Bu11dogg2
10-14-2009, 04:33 PM
What does Nick S have?

Kevin
10-14-2009, 06:43 PM
stock last I knew

the only person I know with a dogbox is ted

boxer3maine
10-14-2009, 07:21 PM
if this is an opinion thread..

helical synchro'd.

no other cheap skating has an excuse...play the mathematical gain called precision and enjoy for 50 years longer in duration...not to mention the nearly infinite chance had TALL top end.. straight cut/dog box is an expendible race car excuse, for today anyway, once upon a time, machining was limited. not meant for real life duration, dynamics. For real. straight cut is a blast from the past...in chunks if your lucky.

how bout that elusive worm wheel? :eek:
the old subes had that mastered too...what happened next?

HamSocks
10-14-2009, 07:29 PM
Somebody was selling a PPG 6-speed dogbox on Craigslist for $3,000 a while back. I wanted to buy it and put it in my 2.5i. Would have been ridiculous.

KJ's Paint & Customs
10-14-2009, 07:55 PM
Nick S. is running a $100 junk yard tranny! :lol:

Bu11dogg2
10-15-2009, 01:50 PM
he runs 10's on a stock tranny? :lol:

Bu11dogg2
02-26-2010, 11:48 AM
just read through this again. Great stuff!

02bugeyeoutback
05-03-2010, 08:40 PM
this is a great write up, comes in handy when your trans. breaks and you want to try and figure out wich direction you want to go in:up:

SonyAD
08-28-2010, 07:05 AM
The only real advantage to a spur gears box is it's considerably easier (and consequently cheaper) to machine the pinions. Make it dog engagement as well and it's a pittance to make, except for the casing.

Doesn't stop aftermarket manufacturers putting huge mark-ups on them, though. They know there'll always be enough people willing to part with their money for no good reason.

The only semblance of a technical argument in favour of spur gear boxes is there's no axial thrust under load. Fine, if that's an issue (it really seldom is) then just cough up the dough for double helical (chevron) gears if you want to do a proper job.

Helical gears aren't just quiet, they're stronger because the load is shared among several teeth and teeth engagement is smooth, with no shock loading.

REDRum
11-28-2010, 09:00 AM
Helical gears aren't just quiet, they're stronger because the load is shared among several teeth and teeth engagement is smooth, with no shock loading.

Amen....

only a fo would run a dog box on the street. [/mr T voice]

They are 5 times the cost of OEM and live 1/3 the life.

kgj996
11-28-2010, 11:02 AM
Well, I'm glad this is useful to some.

If anybody has any first hand experience with any aftermarket gear sets, post some info on their drive ability, reliability, and overall experience.

04Wagoon
11-28-2010, 08:48 PM
There is a guy on Nasioc who has developed a bracket to install on the 5 speed case and it has shown to cut case flex in half. And it is very reasonable at $199 for the whole kit! here is a link. (http://www.nighthawkautomotive.com/)



Production is currently at a halt... Anyone know of any other makers?

02wrxman
02-23-2011, 08:25 AM
love the write up and makes me want the them gears

Evoeater
02-23-2011, 05:37 PM
A few members on here have them and I am sure would be willing to give you a ride sometime. Midnightrush has the PPG straight cut along with Demetry on here...

SCCNH
02-23-2011, 06:37 PM
Trust me it's not something you'd want to deal in a daily driver.

CTATV
02-23-2011, 07:07 PM
Nice writeup Kevin. For now I'm getting a V6 RA DCCD for my GF but will likely in time go to Dog Box. You know when it's less DD and I can get used ot a Dog engagement. Gotta get that power to the floor!
-Gaddis


got that dog box installed yet?

Seraphinwolf
02-27-2011, 02:02 PM
No cause I have a 6mt.

04Wagoon
03-01-2011, 10:25 PM
There is a guy on Nasioc who has developed a bracket to install on the 5 speed case and it has shown to cut case flex in half. And it is very reasonable at $199 for the whole kit! here is a link. (http://www.nighthawkautomotive.com/)

Production is currently at a halt... Anyone know of any other makers?

Im bumping this question cuz bumping yourself for bumping yourself is the coolest thing to do...


also cuz i really want what they were selling....