downest
03-01-2010, 03:15 PM
I want to post about a product we received (and returned) recently for a customer's STi. I originally posted this on my Welding and Fab forum, but I figure it's important for Subaru owners too since you guys may be more likely to buy something like this. If anyone has any questions about the specifics of the welding etc that goes into building a manifold, feel free to ask.
Story... we're building a big power STi, it's an '05, EJ257 block with Wiseco pistons and Manley rods, Perrin GT4088 rotated kit, Labonte meth kit blah blah. It just barely cracked the 400wtq range on the stock engine and turbo, with meth, APS FMIC kit, GTSpec UEL manifold, Helix downpipe and HKS Carbon Ti exhaust. Anyway, the customer wanted to go with a built motor and shoot for more power after the 4088 kit basically fell in his lap for a steal. His GTSpec headers wouldn't fit with the Perrin kit since they use a 3-bolt flange that's not in the stock location, so we had to choose a manifold. I personally will not build a manifold for a Subaru, because I know they are extremely prone to failure, and there are guys out there doing it way better, and have been doing it for a long time.
Our first choice would have been to go with Full Race, but they didn't offer a header for this application (using the stock location uppipe), so we went with the supposed "next best" equal length header from AMR. This header costs about $1200, supposedly comes ceramic coated and has large 2" primaries and of course all stainless construction etc etc. Our other main concern, aside from power production, was the durability and/or warranty offered on the piece, since this car is daily driven, always has been, always will be. After a couple of calls with AMR we were turned off a bit by the piss poor customer service, and lack of ability to answer the simple question of the length of warranty (received numerous answers that didn't seem to mean much at all). The only consistent thing we were told was that the header would never break, so it didn't need a warranty, which didn't mesh with research on the forums of course.
Anyway, the customer still wanted it, so we shelled out the $1200 and received the piece in a few days. When the header arrived, I unpacked it and immediately told the customer I would not be putting this piece on the car, we would either have to get a new one that was properly made, or get something else.
I think the pics below explain it pretty well... undercutting, lack of backpurge, terrible fitment, pinholes and mistakes in just about every weld, warped flanges, half assed back grinding, improper use of a mandrel bender, it's pretty much all there. Flanges are also some kind of ferrous steel, and the "ceramic coating" scraped off from sitting on my wood bench.
For those not familiar with the terms.... Undercutting is basically when the weld bead sits below the surface of the base metal, as seen in the pics below where the DS runners merge into the rest. Backpurging is when the welder runs shielding gas (argon) inside the piece while welding the outside, so that the weld bead on the inside (given full penetration) will not "sugar" from the stainless reacting with free air. This is, IMHO, very important when building manifolds like this, especially with EJ manifolds being prone to failure already. The pinholes and inconsistencies pictured are nothing short of amateur mistakes or lack of care. Not kidding, I taught my girlfriend how to TIG steel last weekend and she doesn't even do that. If they don't leak, those spots will leak to cracks down the road. The flanges will warp when welded, unless they are bolted to something sufficiently large and able to dissipate heat and hold the flange flat. A lot of times this is unavoidable, but the flange can be re-surfaced to make it flat, a thin flange may flatten out, but the ones on this manifold are far too thick. Back grinding is grinding out the "sugar" and other inconsistencies once the piece is welded, this is commonly done on production pieces and most of the exhaust parts you guys already have, and it's perfectly acceptable when done properly. Finally, the mandrel bends should be smooth without any ripples in the pipe, which is of course the point of using a mandrel bender. The machine was improperly adjusted for the tube in the pics. Use of non-stainless flanges is also very common, and I don't think it's a deal breaker, but personally I always use stainless flanges on my stainless work.
I first attempted to call and get the situation straightened out by getting a proper header sent to me. I complained of the quality of the piece and was told that there were air pockets that are unavoidable with this kind of welding, the flanges would flatten out when bolted to the motor, the runners touching didn't matter, and the ceramic coating would bake on when the engine was run. I proceeded to tell them that I'm a welder myself, and this quality is unacceptable, especially considering the price of the header. I asked why the piece wasn't backpurged, and was told "they never leak, why would we backpurge them?!" and clearly started to make whoever I was talking to angry. I also asked if the bends (as seen in the pics) were actually mandrel bent, and if so, they would need to adjust the machine so they could make smooth proper bends (my roommate worked with a bender for a few years at a local shop, honestly I know little to none about how they work, that was his diagnosis). I was told that the bends are fine. After numerous complains and making it clear that I wasn't going to be BS'd about this piece, and that I wasn't putting it on the car, I was told they would take the header back and refund the entire cost. I told them that we would rather just have a replacement that was made properly and as advertised. AMR told me that this header is perfect, and if I got another one it would be the same, so guess what... we sent it back.
I'm not trying to stir anything up here, just posting facts. I don't believe AMR is even involved in the Honda community, I'm posting this as a fabricator to other fabricators. Stuff like this just pisses me off, I know everyone on this forum strives to make their parts to the best of their ability, and we are struggling to make money on this stuff in a tough market that's oversaturated with cheap parts. It's insulting to receive something like this which is supposed to be comparable to a Full Race piece, after already admitting that I can't make a quality Subaru header myself. It's things like this that really get me down about the whole scene and the lack of care and quality some companies will let slide.
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05006.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05007.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05008.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05010.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05011.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05012.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05014.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05015.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05016.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05019.JPG
Story... we're building a big power STi, it's an '05, EJ257 block with Wiseco pistons and Manley rods, Perrin GT4088 rotated kit, Labonte meth kit blah blah. It just barely cracked the 400wtq range on the stock engine and turbo, with meth, APS FMIC kit, GTSpec UEL manifold, Helix downpipe and HKS Carbon Ti exhaust. Anyway, the customer wanted to go with a built motor and shoot for more power after the 4088 kit basically fell in his lap for a steal. His GTSpec headers wouldn't fit with the Perrin kit since they use a 3-bolt flange that's not in the stock location, so we had to choose a manifold. I personally will not build a manifold for a Subaru, because I know they are extremely prone to failure, and there are guys out there doing it way better, and have been doing it for a long time.
Our first choice would have been to go with Full Race, but they didn't offer a header for this application (using the stock location uppipe), so we went with the supposed "next best" equal length header from AMR. This header costs about $1200, supposedly comes ceramic coated and has large 2" primaries and of course all stainless construction etc etc. Our other main concern, aside from power production, was the durability and/or warranty offered on the piece, since this car is daily driven, always has been, always will be. After a couple of calls with AMR we were turned off a bit by the piss poor customer service, and lack of ability to answer the simple question of the length of warranty (received numerous answers that didn't seem to mean much at all). The only consistent thing we were told was that the header would never break, so it didn't need a warranty, which didn't mesh with research on the forums of course.
Anyway, the customer still wanted it, so we shelled out the $1200 and received the piece in a few days. When the header arrived, I unpacked it and immediately told the customer I would not be putting this piece on the car, we would either have to get a new one that was properly made, or get something else.
I think the pics below explain it pretty well... undercutting, lack of backpurge, terrible fitment, pinholes and mistakes in just about every weld, warped flanges, half assed back grinding, improper use of a mandrel bender, it's pretty much all there. Flanges are also some kind of ferrous steel, and the "ceramic coating" scraped off from sitting on my wood bench.
For those not familiar with the terms.... Undercutting is basically when the weld bead sits below the surface of the base metal, as seen in the pics below where the DS runners merge into the rest. Backpurging is when the welder runs shielding gas (argon) inside the piece while welding the outside, so that the weld bead on the inside (given full penetration) will not "sugar" from the stainless reacting with free air. This is, IMHO, very important when building manifolds like this, especially with EJ manifolds being prone to failure already. The pinholes and inconsistencies pictured are nothing short of amateur mistakes or lack of care. Not kidding, I taught my girlfriend how to TIG steel last weekend and she doesn't even do that. If they don't leak, those spots will leak to cracks down the road. The flanges will warp when welded, unless they are bolted to something sufficiently large and able to dissipate heat and hold the flange flat. A lot of times this is unavoidable, but the flange can be re-surfaced to make it flat, a thin flange may flatten out, but the ones on this manifold are far too thick. Back grinding is grinding out the "sugar" and other inconsistencies once the piece is welded, this is commonly done on production pieces and most of the exhaust parts you guys already have, and it's perfectly acceptable when done properly. Finally, the mandrel bends should be smooth without any ripples in the pipe, which is of course the point of using a mandrel bender. The machine was improperly adjusted for the tube in the pics. Use of non-stainless flanges is also very common, and I don't think it's a deal breaker, but personally I always use stainless flanges on my stainless work.
I first attempted to call and get the situation straightened out by getting a proper header sent to me. I complained of the quality of the piece and was told that there were air pockets that are unavoidable with this kind of welding, the flanges would flatten out when bolted to the motor, the runners touching didn't matter, and the ceramic coating would bake on when the engine was run. I proceeded to tell them that I'm a welder myself, and this quality is unacceptable, especially considering the price of the header. I asked why the piece wasn't backpurged, and was told "they never leak, why would we backpurge them?!" and clearly started to make whoever I was talking to angry. I also asked if the bends (as seen in the pics) were actually mandrel bent, and if so, they would need to adjust the machine so they could make smooth proper bends (my roommate worked with a bender for a few years at a local shop, honestly I know little to none about how they work, that was his diagnosis). I was told that the bends are fine. After numerous complains and making it clear that I wasn't going to be BS'd about this piece, and that I wasn't putting it on the car, I was told they would take the header back and refund the entire cost. I told them that we would rather just have a replacement that was made properly and as advertised. AMR told me that this header is perfect, and if I got another one it would be the same, so guess what... we sent it back.
I'm not trying to stir anything up here, just posting facts. I don't believe AMR is even involved in the Honda community, I'm posting this as a fabricator to other fabricators. Stuff like this just pisses me off, I know everyone on this forum strives to make their parts to the best of their ability, and we are struggling to make money on this stuff in a tough market that's oversaturated with cheap parts. It's insulting to receive something like this which is supposed to be comparable to a Full Race piece, after already admitting that I can't make a quality Subaru header myself. It's things like this that really get me down about the whole scene and the lack of care and quality some companies will let slide.
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05006.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05007.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05008.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05010.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05011.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05012.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05014.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05015.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05016.JPG
http://wickedinnovation.net/downest/STi%20header/DSC05019.JPG